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Xcal2 vs. Jet chip vs. SVT PCM


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#1 KAOS_2.5M

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 06:15 PM

ok, so after looking around, I've actually discovered that I stand a chance of hunting down an Xcal for less than a JET modual.

so I guess my primary question is, will an Xcal work with my SE PCM?

or would I have to spend around 250 on an Xcal plus the 300 tottal to swap in an SVT pcm?


also...

could I get a drivable tune on an Xcal without dyno tune time?

like shouldn't I be able to jack up the front of the car on stands, hook up a lap top, start with somebody else's base tune for a 3l, and get pretty close?


just wondering, let me know guys


thanks

[edit]

is any excal for a ford vehicle compatible with my 'tour, solong as I upload a compatible tune?

thats how it looks from what I'm reading

Edited by KAOS_2.5M, 25 May 2008 - 06:20 PM.


#2 BuckeyeSVT

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 06:31 PM

Xcal2 will work with any Ford PCM. Superchips offers a base tune (for the motor) but you would need work with it extensively to make it work. Someone else's tune is just that, someone else's. Even if it's close, there is still alot of work to do with the calibration to make sure it's going to work correct with your exact combo. Don't take this lightly, there is alot of work that requires a wideband O2 and a dyno to be able to tune the motor across it's range, not at idle or WOT... That's not going to work. There are alot of "tuners" that tune for WOT only, this is a half-assed method and in the long run causes the engine to fail because it's not completely tuned except when the throttle is fully open (which isn't where you are more than 10% of your driving).

Real tuning takes normally a few hours on a dyno in a controlled situation by a professional - Not something you can do on the road or your street for that matter.

-Dom

#3 SVTDEMON

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 07:13 PM

ok, so after looking around, I've actually discovered that I stand a chance of hunting down an Xcal for less than a JET modual.

so I guess my primary question is, will an Xcal work with my SE PCM?

or would I have to spend around 250 on an Xcal plus the 300 tottal to swap in an SVT pcm?


also...

could I get a drivable tune on an Xcal without dyno tune time?

like shouldn't I be able to jack up the front of the car on stands, hook up a lap top, start with somebody else's base tune for a 3l, and get pretty close?


just wondering, let me know guys


thanks

[edit]

is any excal for a ford vehicle compatible with my 'tour, solong as I upload a compatible tune?

thats how it looks from what I'm reading

Jet chips are worthless!

#4 KAOS_2.5M

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 07:13 PM

Xcal2 will work with any Ford PCM. Superchips offers a base tune (for the motor) but you would need work with it extensively to make it work. Someone else's tune is just that, someone else's. Even if it's close, there is still alot of work to do with the calibration to make sure it's going to work correct with your exact combo. Don't take this lightly, there is alot of work that requires a wideband O2 and a dyno to be able to tune the motor across it's range, not at idle or WOT... That's not going to work. There are alot of "tuners" that tune for WOT only, this is a half-assed method and in the long run causes the engine to fail because it's not completely tuned except when the throttle is fully open (which isn't where you are more than 10% of your driving).

Real tuning takes normally a few hours on a dyno in a controlled situation by a professional - Not something you can do on the road or your street for that matter.

-Dom



well I was thinking to jack up the front and let the tires spin free, then tune it like it was on a dyno, with a laptop in the pass seat. I know it has to be tuned through a wide range of RPMs.

from what I can tell, the only side effect of this method would be I can't load the wheels like on a mustang dyno, and I won't have a dyno sheet to prove gains.

but I could get it to run properly without a too-rich/too-lean problem, ya know?

if theres an issue with the tune, the Xcal will data log it and I could adjust for it with a retune. yes it's crude, but not as crude as other ideas I've had.

not to say I don't plan on a dyno tune, but I need it to work sooner than later and my budget is low.

I'm also seeing some Xcal 1's, will they work too?

#5 KAOS_2.5M

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 07:15 PM

Jet chips are worthless!



yeah, I've now come to that conclusion, but figured I'd throw it in for others benefit.

#6 SVTDEMON

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 07:19 PM

well I was thinking to jack up the front and let the tires spin free, then tune it like it was on a dyno, with a laptop in the pass seat. I know it has to be tuned through a wide range of RPMs.

from what I can tell, the only side effect of this method would be I can't load the wheels like on a mustang dyno, and I won't have a dyno sheet to prove gains.

but I could get it to run properly without a too-rich/too-lean problem, ya know?

if theres an issue with the tune, the Xcal will data log it and I could adjust for it with a retune. yes it's crude, but not as crude as other ideas I've had.

not to say I don't plan on a dyno tune, but I need it to work sooner than later and my budget is low.

I'm also seeing some Xcal 1's, will they work too?

If you hook it up and then take it to the dyno they should be able to get you out within 3-4 hours,that will save you some cash and make your car perfectly tuned.You can't half ass your way around fuel injection tuning,it is needed.Personal advice to you I tried half assin it and almost killed my motor,it would of been cheaper to drop it off at the shop the first day!

#7 KAOS_2.5M

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 07:36 PM

If you hook it up and then take it to the dyno they should be able to get you out within 3-4 hours,that will save you some cash and make your car perfectly tuned.You can't half ass your way around fuel injection tuning,it is needed.Personal advice to you I tried half assin it and almost killed my motor,it would of been cheaper to drop it off at the shop the first day!


yeah, but used Xcals usually come with only tunes for other vehicles. 'tours arent very popular, so a used one really never comes with a tune for our cars.

your not trying to say I could drive it there with a tune for another vehicle, are you?

or are you saying it would be safe to drive the 'tour to the dyno with a 3L and a stock SE pcm?


I don't have an svt, so I'm worried about running a 3L with a stock tune for long at all. don't need to burn up the valves.

#8 SVTDEMON

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 08:34 PM

yeah, but used Xcals usually come with only tunes for other vehicles. 'tours arent very popular, so a used one really never comes with a tune for our cars.

your not trying to say I could drive it there with a tune for another vehicle, are you?

or are you saying it would be safe to drive the 'tour to the dyno with a 3L and a stock SE pcm?


I don't have an svt, so I'm worried about running a 3L with a stock tune for long at all. don't need to burn up the valves.

No what I am saying is install the programmer your self,give it a base tune.Not anything to drastic,I would'nt invest more than 3 hours on it.Then after you get the programmer installed take it to the dyno,so they can finish tuning it the rest of the way.How far away from the place that will be tuning your vehicle do you live? I would'nt suggest driving it more than 30 miles maximum,If you have AAA drive it until it starts messin up then have it towed the rest of the way.I am lucky enough to live only 5 miles away from the shop that is currently dyno tuning my car,so I drove it there.So you are doing an 3.0 with stock duratec heads or are you switching out the heads for SVTs?If you are doing stock heads,I really don't see why you would need to pick up an SVT PCM.Would 'nt that put to much stress on the stock duratec heads being told what to do by an SVT PCM?I drove around for 3 months with incorrect injectors in my car,long distances.As long as you realize when your engine is starting to frag itself you should be fine,driving to the dyno!Why don't you just get a full 3.0 and the ecu and drop that in,I think that it would be cheaper,but then again I would wait for the master and see what he says in the morning.When in doubt ask TERRY,he is the man.

#9 KAOS_2.5M

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 09:26 PM

No what I am saying is install the programmer your self,give it a base tune.Not anything to drastic,I would'nt invest more than 3 hours on it.Then after you get the programmer installed take it to the dyno,so they can finish tuning it the rest of the way.How far away from the place that will be tuning your vehicle do you live? I would'nt suggest driving it more than 30 miles maximum,If you have AAA drive it until it starts messin up then have it towed the rest of the way.I am lucky enough to live only 5 miles away from the shop that is currently dyno tuning my car,so I drove it there.So you are doing an 3.0 with stock duratec heads or are you switching out the heads for SVTs?If you are doing stock heads,I really don't see why you would need to pick up an SVT PCM.Would 'nt that put to much stress on the stock duratec heads being told what to do by an SVT PCM?I drove around for 3 months with incorrect injectors in my car,long distances.As long as you realize when your engine is starting to frag itself you should be fine,driving to the dyno!Why don't you just get a full 3.0 and the ecu and drop that in,I think that it would be cheaper,but then again I would wait for the master and see what he says in the morning.When in doubt ask TERRY,he is the man.



ok, well first off, I havent heard of anybody getting verry good results from a 3l pcm, let alone the fact that it doesn't hook right up to a contour harness.

most full 3L use an svt pcm with Xcal2

on top of that, I'm planning on a full long block swap. I know the split port 3l's have weaker rods and pistons, but the extra 200+ in engine cost just doesn't make since when I have no plan of extracting every ounce of power from the engine. so no 2.5 heads.

way I see it, you take 170 for complete split port 3l, + 150-200 for used Xcal2, + 35 for intake gaskets, + 10 for oil pan gasket, + 10 for exhaust gaskets, + maybe 20 for timing gaskets, toss in maybe 50 too hook up the egr/pcv/other fiddly bits, and you have over 200hp in an SE (with tons of base RPM torque) for under 500 bucks.

does that not make any since?

#10 BuckeyeSVT

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 09:49 PM

Jacking up the front end and trying to tune for what? Engines are tuned under LOAD not freewheeling the tires. First understand the concepts of tuning - then invest in the equipment... Otherwise you are wasting your time and money.

-Dom

#11 SVTDEMON

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 10:15 PM

ok, well first off, I havent heard of anybody getting verry good results from a 3l pcm, let alone the fact that it doesn't hook right up to a contour harness.

most full 3L use an svt pcm with Xcal2

on top of that, I'm planning on a full long block swap. I know the split port 3l's have weaker rods and pistons, but the extra 200+ in engine cost just doesn't make since when I have no plan of extracting every ounce of power from the engine. so no 2.5 heads.

way I see it, you take 170 for complete split port 3l, + 150-200 for used Xcal2, + 35 for intake gaskets, + 10 for oil pan gasket, + 10 for exhaust gaskets, + maybe 20 for timing gaskets, toss in maybe 50 too hook up the egr/pcv/other fiddly bits, and you have over 200hp in an SE (with tons of base RPM torque) for under 500 bucks.

does that not make any since?

That makes sense,I am about 7 months from doing my motor swap.That is why I was asking stupid questions.So the 3.0 pcm sucks that is good to know,I thought that it work better. Then again you are right there is no way that the wiring harnesses would link up.So I take it that you are going to be doing this yourself?I wish the nearest salvage yard was'nt inOceanside because they tax 3 times as much as something is worth just because it is next to a military base.I will probably get a tauras block send it to the machine shop get it fully rebuilt then bolt on my heads and manifolds.I am still waitin to see what my car will do when it is fully tuned.The main problem with the people that do the motor swaps is they don't get it tuned properlyGood Luck!

#12 SVTDEMON

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 10:26 PM

Jacking up the front end and trying to tune for what? Engines are tuned under LOAD not freewheeling the tires. First understand the concepts of tuning - then invest in the equipment... Otherwise you are wasting your time and money.

-Dom

Unless you have had a car dynoed before there is no way to tell what it is on,it was a pretty good assumption that it is like rollers.So you definitly need a pro maf setup when dropping in a 3.0?Or is that only with the superchip setup?Your in Crackron Imean Akron,do you know that dude that has that kickass forest green svt in lakewood?Has gas finally gotten over 4.00 a gallon there yet?When I left Cleveland for cali gas was a 1.73 for premium,right on brotherman you have a nice night!

#13 KAOS_2.5M

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 10:57 PM

Jacking up the front end and trying to tune for what? Engines are tuned under LOAD not freewheeling the tires. First understand the concepts of tuning - then invest in the equipment... Otherwise you are wasting your time and money.

-Dom


you haven't seen "loaded" and "unloaded" dyno specs?

I was expecting to get a descent base tune by adjusting it at different RPMs based on data logging from the Xcal.

I did actually think about a way to create a load at my house, but it involved a live rear axel, with the tires contacting my front tires, and the driveshaft plate tied to a cement mixer, LMAO

seemed like too much trouble since I plan on dyno tuning it within the year

#14 Special K

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 05:14 AM

Have you looked into a Sniper tuning system? In all honesty its a cheap system if you have someone go halves on it. I'm not sure if anyone here has used it, but a few guys I know swear by it.

http://www.snipertuning.com/new/

#15 SVTDEMON

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 10:36 AM

Have you looked into a Sniper tuning system? In all honesty its a cheap system if you have someone go halves on it. I'm not sure if anyone here has used it, but a few guys I know swear by it.

http://www.snipertuning.com/new/

Yeah that is the software that my car is bein dyno tuned with right now,the guy I took it to is so impressed he wants to become the west coast distributer!You are right actually but instead of finding someone to go halves on it,get the program fo your car and buy replacement bullets which are like plug and play perfomance chips.Tune a couple other guys cars or just sell the chips on ebay.Would not advise that you attempt to install this with out a dyno!But the bullets any one can install after your initial dyno tune!

Edited by SVTDEMON, 26 May 2008 - 10:37 AM.


#16 KAOS_2.5M

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 01:17 PM

Yeah that is the software that my car is bein dyno tuned with right now,the guy I took it to is so impressed he wants to become the west coast distributer!You are right actually but instead of finding someone to go halves on it,get the program fo your car and buy replacement bullets which are like plug and play perfomance chips.Tune a couple other guys cars or just sell the chips on ebay.Would not advise that you attempt to install this with out a dyno!But the bullets any one can install after your initial dyno tune!


huh? a little more info would help here.

IDK, just woke up, I'll check that url later

#17 SVTDEMON

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 01:39 PM

huh? a little more info would help here.

IDK, just woke up, I'll check that url later

Yeah I have heard bad things about it and the people saying them are their competitors!they have a forum set up for constant feedback.It is more like a custom piggyback than tuning software.But after your car gets programmed you can sell bullets to other moddies and make your money backall you do is load the tuning file to the chip from your computer.It has data logging that you can do from home except amateurs should not attempt to ever do this extensive of tuning themselves.Look it up man there are plenty of happy customers and that way you can get around gettin that svt brain!

#18 Special K

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 07:45 PM

Yeah I have heard bad things about it and the people saying them are their competitors!they have a forum set up for constant feedback.It is more like a custom piggyback than tuning software.But after your car gets programmed you can sell bullets to other moddies and make your money backall you do is load the tuning file to the chip from your computer.It has data logging that you can do from home except amateurs should not attempt to ever do this extensive of tuning themselves.Look it up man there are plenty of happy customers and that way you can get around gettin that svt brain!


Well the basic sniper anyone can setup. Its only a basic tune that's compiled thru a series of questions, but even that basic tune gives you more power than an SCT base tune. I.'d say that the Sniper base tune would almost be the equal of a base SVT ecu.

SVTDemon, the data log setup the owner could run themselves. The owner could setup the basic tune & load it, then run the datalog on the way to their dyno. Now, if the owner doesn't know squat about tuning period, it is as you say pointless.

#19 SVTDEMON

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:53 AM

Well the basic sniper anyone can setup. Its only a basic tune that's compiled thru a series of questions, but even that basic tune gives you more power than an SCT base tune. I.'d say that the Sniper base tune would almost be the equal of a base SVT ecu.

SVTDemon, the data log setup the owner could run themselves. The owner could setup the basic tune & load it, then run the datalog on the way to their dyno. Now, if the owner doesn't know squat about tuning period, it is as you say pointless.

Yeah if you have a labtop,LOL which unfortunatly I don't don't!

#20 Special K

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 04:36 PM

The Special Forces system is the basic system. Also you don't need a laptop, I believe it comes with a module to load the tune.