33 replies to this topic

[Terry Haines]

..some time ago you have read about the 6 sped trans in the Noble cars,the MMT6 from the 3.0 ST220,tends to fail on high power/track use.We tried here at HMS to get special gearsets etc from Quaife.The $$$ was very high so I came up with an option. A specil built MTX75 to replace the MMT6 unit.
I'm happy to report that some months on from the build of this trans and extensive mods for shifter etc by Turbo Hoses (Noble Dealer),that the MTX75 has covered many miles and is in good shape.
This Noble has had some extensive turbo and tuning mods made to the 3.0.
For interest this car now puts down....



...520 WHP @ 474 Ft/lbs or torque thru our MTX75...


I'm VERY happy with the results and working with all the guys at Turbo Hoses.Great crowd and damm good engineers to work with.
Now THAT is the sort of power a 3.0 turbo SHOULD make!!!

[CollinsPC]

Now the question is how do we get that kind of power into the Tours and how do we get it to the ground!

All I have to say is WOW

[Terry Haines]

The Noble 3.0's are 'built' motors.The turbo is a special package from Turbo Hoses,the dyno tune and calibration is from Turbo Hoses.To the ground...with VERY careful suspension set up it can be done.Don't forget early 'modies in UK and Europe made a LOT more power on special track cars etc and they were able to get it it down.Suspension set ups is not just bolt on shocks and springs I can assure you.Once the car is rolling (Vs 'spinning') the power can be used...

[TRicker]

terry, i dont' know anything about boosting cars. i know less about how to do it properly. i do know this. everyone i know that has a boosted duratec is running some form of stock type cam. and a stock intake.

wouldnt' the best option be a breadbox style intake and a custom ground cam? i know the noble runs a stock intake setup from some production car (i dont really pay attention to which one) but i assume they have different cams all together?

i know a guy locally that has a built acura integra. he was 412 whp (trq i dont remember) he went from stock integra type R cams, to a set of custom ground cams for his turbocharged application and made 530 whp (still dont remember the trq)

so are cams the secret to unleashing the power? simply "turning up the boost" isn't always the key to making power. i do know that much.

[Terry Haines]

...a good turbo motor that makes this sort of power,is built from the 'inside out' The Noble engine is not just a turbo bolt on for a stoc 3.0 ST220 engine. the key to power is the CR of the engine.The start point has to be correct.Wrong CR,as most T/C 3.0 are in Contours,will NOT give you the power of a Noble 3.0. It's basic physics.

[MaddMike]

If you have never seen one of these bad boys check out the two links.(I bet Terry has seen these, so this is for the rest of us )

Noble on track

Edmunds test

Here is some insite in to the Noble 3.0, from their forum. It looks to me like we could copy one for the Contour.


We use a custom forged aluminum piston from Wiseco which results in a compression ratio of about 8.5:1 - Interesting, I thought was 8.0:1, as per Noble literature. The little more compression probably gives a tad better pre-boost power and response. Nice little bonus, since we already got the added protection and durability of forged Wiseco's.

The rods are Scat's 4340 forged H-beam with ARP 2000 bolts. (These are not the Q-Lite version) - ARP 2000 are seriously strong, higher quality then their 8740 bolts. (Opening my engine shows that they switched to SPS aerospace fasteners). There's back and forth debate about H-beam vs I-beam. Regardless, Scat forged rods are bound to be way WAY more than we need at our HP levels.

Yes, they are standard green top, 42 lb Lightning injectors.

In terms of balancing and blueprinting...
Each crank is rebalanced to match the weight of the new forged rods and pistons. Each block is checked for deck height, main bore size, etc. Heads and cranks and inspected as well. Due to small variations in piston size, we measure each and every one in our climate controlled quality dept and then make very closely matched sets of six. After this, each block is honed to match the set of six pistons. We do this in order to maintain very tight control over the piston-to-bore clearance to reduce the possiblilty of piston slap from the increased clearance requirements of a forged piston.
Other items which are different:1) The camshafts are a unique profile with increased lift and duration. - turns out to be stock Mondeo ST220 cams
2) The block is specially machined to install piston squirters on each cylinder.
3) The accessory drive setup requires a non-stock front cover.
4) We use a special dual frequency damper for engine smoothness. This is not an underdrive or lightweight type change.
5) Lighter weight 19 lb flywheel - Looks like standard SVT Contour flywheel, which is 2lbs lighter than the non-SVT version
6) The piston squirters and turbos create increased demand for oil. A higher capacity oil pump is in the works...

Edited by MaddMike, 21 March 2009 - 10:47 AM.

[Terry Haines]

...many years ago on a trip to UK,before the Noble was a 3.0,I had the chance to track drive the then 'new' 2.5 twin turbo Noble.Nothing I have driven in a 3.0 Turbo Contour even comes close!...A note on the Noble specs listed....the oil pump for any of the V6's (Jag etc) that has VCT, has a higher oil output..

[MaddMike]

Terry Haines, on Mar 21 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

...many years ago on a trip to UK,before the Noble was a 3.0,I had the chance to track drive the then 'new' 2.5 twin turbo Noble.Nothing I have driven in a 3.0 Turbo Contour even comes close!...A note on the Noble specs listed....the oil pump for any of the V6's (Jag etc) that has VCT, has a higher oil output..

I would love to get the chance to drive a Noble, but I'll be content with my Contour.

Ok the oiling problem is fixed, we can build a similar motor. We have a tranny that can handle the power. Now the question is getting the power to the ground. By the way here are three pics of a Noble 3.0L as delivered.

 engine_back.jpg   135.4K   12 downloads

 engine_car.jpg   111.75K   11 downloads

 engine_front.jpg   143.91K   10 downloads

Terry by the way which incarnation of the 3.0L do they use.

[CrewChiefPro]

Terry Haines, on Mar 19 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

..some time ago you have read about the 6 sped trans in the Noble cars,the MMT6 from the 3.0 ST220,tends to fail on high power/track use.We tried here at HMS to get special gearsets etc from Quaife.The $$$ was very high so I came up with an option. A specil built MTX75 to replace the MMT6 unit.
I'm happy to report that some months on from the build of this trans and extensive mods for shifter etc by Turbo Hoses (Noble Dealer),that the MTX75 has covered many miles and is in good shape.
This Noble has had some extensive turbo and tuning mods made to the 3.0.
For interest this car now puts down....



...520 WHP @ 474 Ft/lbs or torque thru our MTX75...


I'm VERY happy with the results and working with all the guys at Turbo Hoses.Great crowd and damm good engineers to work with.
Now THAT is the sort of power a 3.0 turbo SHOULD make!!!

Chit that is a powerful motor.

[spridget]

MaddMike, on Mar 21 2009, 12:06 PM, said:

Terry by the way which incarnation of the 3.0L do they use.

Escape

[Terry Haines]

Owners should also note that the Noble does not use an of the off the shelf aftermarket clutch.I think the unit is an AP Racing clutch.Turbo Hoses can advise on the clutch they use to handle the HP & torque of this engine/trans combo...

[gamiller]

Terry Haines, on Mar 20 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

...a good turbo motor that makes this sort of power,is built from the 'inside out' The Noble engine is not just a turbo bolt on for a stoc 3.0 ST220 engine. the key to power is the CR of the engine.The start point has to be correct.Wrong CR,as most T/C 3.0 are in Contours,will NOT give you the power of a Noble 3.0. It's basic physics.

Terry, the Noble folks complain of significant blow-by due to their forged pistons. Contours & Cougars with forged pistons appear to have similar issues. Few of us have made good power for long on forged pistons. Believe it or not, people seem to be having better luck with stock internals, thanks to the tighter tolerances possible with hyper-eutectic pistons. Of course, such materials limit the amount of boost one can run. Perhaps the sweet spot is to be found with lower-compression, hyper-eutectic pistons.

Edited by gamiller, 24 March 2009 - 05:35 PM.

[Terry Haines]

A good build and measurements usually help with forged pistons. What is the position of the grade point measurement on the pistons being used? The piston to bore running clearence is set at..????....Section type of top compression ring is..???? Piston material number is..???? With this info in hand blow by can be reduced...

[CrewChiefPro]

I have been discussing some options with Vic at Weisco Pistons and he told me blow by should not be a problem with the new materials if they size the bore properly. I am not sure why it would be an issue anyway, my 1100 HP drag motor has very little. A 400 - 500 HP street motor should have next to nothing.

Terry, is a stock pin size strong enough for a turbo?

[Terry Haines]

..yes the stoc pin size is fine...and a few more points on pistons and rings...

..OK lets take a look at pistons first.,most stoc pistons are now hypereutectic cast type.This is fine for most stoc engines. Hypereutectic pistons have a low coeff of expansion and tend to hold dimensions better..but they have a couple of downsides..1)The alloy is less dense that most aftermarket forged pistons and does not conduct heat away as fast as a forged unit 2)The alloys used in hyper pistons is quite hard,this adds a higher degree of brittleness to the piston.Brittle pistons do not like any detonation at all and tend to fail rapidly in det conditions.

On a forged piston the coef of expansion is higher so most piston makers advise larger piston to bore build clearances.As the piston will expand thru a greater range than the hyper unit its running clearance should become stoc at operating temp.A forged alloy piston is also far more dense than the hyper allys and will conduct away heat better.

Rings

A stoc piston works well with a stoc ring pack.The forged unit however,when cold,will tend to have more piston to bore clearance when cold and can ‘tilt’ in the bore until temp is reached.This tilt of the piston can cause some blow by when cold.The piston rings are sealed by compression pressure behind them.A flat faced top ring on a forged piston will tend to loose its seal when cold as the flat sealing area is tilted off the bore until the piston warms up.The better choice for a top compression reing is a barrel section plasma moly filled ring.A barrel section top ring will retain its seal in the bore as the piston tilts.

When using aftermarket forged pistions,which should be coated I might add!, the builder should follow dimension for piston to bore running clearances supplied by the piston maker,the ring gaps and ring side clearances would be supplied by the ring and/or piston supplier.
After market pistons should be supplied with a grade point measurement,that is the position on the major axis of the piston skirt when the piston is at it largest diameter, piston are NOT round.Each piston must soak at around room temp before each pistons grade point is measured.From this + the running clearance the diameter of the final hone of the cylinder bore can be established.We hone bores to fit pistons ,not the other way round ! Most all issues owners have with forged pistons,blow by etc are caused by bad build measurements etc…

Take all this into account when you select pistons in you turbo engine build…

[Terry Haines]

....on the Nobles at Turbo Hoses, you may want to check out exactly what they can do turbo wise at...

www.turbohoses.com/


You will notice on the home page on the left...


Noble M12/M400

5 spd. Racing Transmission Upgrade

and Engine Refresh Program



...these transmissions are built by me at HMS Inc...

[Gar]

I think I'll eventually end up putting the Noble engine in mine. I threw away the budget more than a year ago. I can begin to see a date not so far off for completing the project, and if I just keep socking money away in a fund after finishing, I'll have the loot for a motor in only a couple years. This weekend is my annual brothers visit where we go to Carlisle kit/import show. They have Nobles there... I studied them closely as I was picking my powerplant back in the beginning. This year we're looking for another trans for the Lotus, and a second (UN1-26 or 016-AAZ) tranny for my next big project. For anyone attending, I won't have my car there, but I'll be hanging with the Kelmark guys, and the Pittsburgh Lotus/Triumph guys wearing a Ferrari shirt.

Gar

[spridget]

Gar, your project would be perfect for a turbo'd Noble setup.

[Gar]

Luke,

I think so too. It's about the same weight. The trans would need to go back to HMS for special improvement. My engine cradle may not allow the Noble exhaust plumbing, but I could fit a single snail on the collector where I presently have the ball/socket joint.

 SS_exhaust.JPG   20.4K   8 downloads

I'd set my target HP at around 200-215 at the wheels... Noble HP would be crazy fun, and may exceed my judgement, driver-wise, lol. BTW, thanks for the flywheel/clutch advise.

Gar

[Terry Haines]

All sounds good Gar, a bit like a Raffo car I had a hand in some years ago in UK. Anything you need on the trans just e mail..if ours will live in a track Noble I'm sure we can build one for you...