3 replies to this topic

[Terry Haines]

..all fine until you have a storm and the the power goes out during charging eh!..but whatever...

Experts warn 'battery bubble' could burst Michigan's dreams
Published: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 5:14 AM


LIVONIA -- Michigan and the federal government have placed a multibillion dollar bet that advanced batteries and electric vehicles will someday power the state and national economies.
But experts at a National Academy of Sciences conference on the future of batteries, held here Monday, said the bet could go bust if consumers don't buy those vehicles. And no one knows if they will.
"We've got the capacity side covered. Demand is really the focus as we go forward," said Jason Forcier, a vice president of A123 Systems, a Boston-based company that is investing in lithium-ion battery production in Michigan.
Forcier and others estimated that 500,000 automotive lithium-ion batteries will be manufactured in the United States over the next five years, possibly exceeding demand for use in hybrid, plug-in hybrid and pure electric vehicles.
While hybrids make up 3 percent of the U.S. vehicle market, there are no mass-market, pure electric vehicles for sale here yet. The Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf electrics will hit dealer showrooms later this year.
Mohamed Alamgir, research director of Compact Power Inc., a Troy company that is building a lithium-ion battery plant in Holland, warned of a "battery bubble" that could result in significant battery overcapacity in just a few years.
Alamgir said there could be a shakeout of battery manufacturers, even as the industry is just ramping up here.
"If you want to be in this game, you have to be deep-pocketed," said Alamgir, whose company is a subsidiary of Korean consumer electronics giant LG Chem. President Obama came the groundbreaking ceremony for that company's battery plant in Holland July 16.
Growing the advanced battery industry here also is being slowed by the lack of a vibrant domestic supply chain, said Tom Watson, vice president of research and development at Johnson Controls Inc.
"A lot of the supply base is offshore, not only in manufacturing, but in research and development," he said.
Johnson Controls and French battery maker Saft are establishing a lithium-ion battery plant in Holland.
The Obama administration last year allocated $2.3 billion in stimulus funds to help develop the nascent advanced battery industry. More than half of that money -- $1.35 billion -- was awarded to Michigan companies and organizations.
Much of the money is being spent on research and development, and on the manufacturing of advanced batteries.
Michigan has supplemented that with lucrative tax credits for companies manufacturing cells and battery packs in the state.
Sixteen companies, including Compact Power and Johnson Controls in Holland and fortu PowerCell in Muskegon, are preparing to build advanced batteries in Michigan.
Gov. Jennifer Granholm said the state expects to create 62,000 new battery jobs in Michigan over the next 10 years.
But some experts at the conference said the federal government must do more to stimulate demand for electric-powered vehicles.
Michael Reed, who heads the battery division at Magna International Inc., said efforts to boost demand would likely bear more fruit than selecting possibly unsuccessful battery companies for manufacturing grants.
"You might pick the winner too early by funding battery manufacturers," he said.
U.S. Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich., said the government is stimulating demand for electric vehicles in a variety of ways.
Those include purchasing them for government fleets--she said the government will buy the first 100 Chevy Volts--and offering consumer incentives to buy them.
She defended the government's investment in the battery industry, saying other countries are doing even more to make sure the United States does not become a dominant player in the industry.
"China is spending $288 million a day to beat us on clean energy," she said. "It's incredibly important that we ramp this up as fast as we can."
U.S. Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., said the United States must develop the battery industry to protect the environment, reduce dependence on foreign oil and transform the economy.
"This is important to those who don't know a lithium-ion battery from an Energizer Bunny battery," he said.

[rac74]

We lost power Sunday for about 6 and a half hours and didn't get it back until 1030PM. Anyone else find a problem with that? I'm sure there's a solution but I'll always have an ICE in my fleet until it's remedied.

I do love how the taxpayer is shouldering the costs of an industry that has a high probability of going bust at this time as the cars are not very marketable yet...

[Terry Haines]

GM to sell Volt for $41K, lease for $350 a month

DETROIT – General Motors Co. said Tuesday its Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost $41,000 when it goes on sale in November.
While the price is about $8,000 more than its closest rival, the Nissan Leaf, GM said it will offer a $350-per-month lease deal that's essentially equal to the Leaf's. That will put the battery-powered Volt within reach of many people, GM said.
Both cars also are eligible for a federal tax credit that will cut their prices by $7,500. The Volt would fall to $33,500 while the Leaf's would drop to $25,280 from nearly $33,000.
Some states, such as California, Georgia and Oregon, offer additional tax breaks that lower the price further.
The Volt, a 4-door sedan, runs on battery power for up to 40 miles but has a small gasoline engine to generate electricity once the battery runs down. The gas engine can generate power to run the car another 300 miles.
That's a big selling point because some drivers worry about the battery going dead during trips. This so-called "range anxiety" dogged GM's experimental EV-1 electric car in the 1990s.
To give the car wider appeal, drivers must know "they're not going to get stranded," said Joel Ewanick, GM vice president U.S. marketing, as he announced the Volt's price at a conference in San Jose, Calif.
GM's lease deal is $350 a month for 36 months with $2,500 down. Nissan's lease plan is $349 per month for the same length of time with $1,995 down.
GM will unveil the Volt first in California, then in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Washington, D.C., Michigan and Texas. The cars will first be sold through 600 Chevrolet dealers. But in 12 to 18 months, dealers nationwide should offer the cars.
Nissan's Leaf, which goes on sale in December, can go up to 100 miles on a charge. The car doesn't have a gas engine and must be recharged once its battery is depleted.
Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said the Leaf itself emits no pollution and is designed for people whose daily travels are within its range



NEW YORK (AP) -- The auto industry calls it range anxiety: Drivers want electric cars but worry they won't have enough juice to make long trips. After all, what good is going green if you get stranded with a dead battery?
It's a fear that automakers must overcome as they push to sell more battery-powered cars. So government and business are taking steps to reassure drivers by building up the nation's network of electric charging stations.
The hope is Americans will become more comfortable buying cars such as Nissan's all-electric Leaf, due out late this year, which can travel just 100 miles on a single charge. That's fine for a commute but potentially stressful for longer road trips.
"I think the Leaf is a beautifully designed vehicle, but 50 miles in one direction is just not enough," says Bob Shafron, a former electric car owner in California. "I think they are going to run into problems in markets like LA, where things are spread out."
While automakers and electric car advocates expect most charging to be done at home outlets, those plugs won't help drivers running low on power far from their garages or caught in traffic.
Only a few hundred public chargers exist now, but several government grants totaling more than $115 million will help add thousands more, including in San Diego, Detroit, Washington, D.C., and Bellevue, Wash.
Electric vehicle advocates hope more will be built by private retailers and restaurants, using the charging stations to draw in customers the same way coffee shops offer Wi-Fi.
Public and privately funded chargers are going up in places like rest stops, hotels and McDonald's and Starbucks. Still, even the most optimistic estimates put the number of public charging stations at 16,000 by 2012, tiny compared with the 117,000 gas stations on American roads.
President Barack Obama wants 1 million electric cars on American roads by 2015, but experts say a chicken-and-egg problem is standing in the way. Before enough cars hit the road, private vendors may be reluctant to build many charging stations. And without many charging stations on the road, people may be reluctant to buy the cars.
Most public stations will take eight hours to juice up a car all the way, about the same as chargers in individual homes. These plugs could work for people who have chargers near their offices, but wouldn't work for quick refueling. Even a partial charge will take awhile -- two-and-a-half hours to get 30 miles. A limited number of the chargers will be fast-chargers. If you can find one, it will still take 30 minutes for a full powerup.
In 1999, Shafron ran out of power as he was driving his EV1, the all-electric car that General Motors launched in the 1990s and later stopped making, from his beach home to Northridge, Calif. His range meter told him he had 20 miles left, but it quickly ran down to zero.
Difficulty in gauging remaining battery charge was a common issue with the EV1. Varying road conditions like hills and bad weather, which can take a toll on battery life, made the range of early electric cars tough to predict.
Carmakers say that new range meters in today's electric cars are much more accurate.
Whether or not the infrastructure is ready, many automakers will be putting out electric cars, with an estimated 146,000 on the road by the end of 2012.
Tesla, which just took itself public, has sold a little more than 1,000 high-end electric sports cars and plans to offer a lower-priced sedan in the next few years. Nissan has its Leaf, and Ford aims to enter the market with an all-electric Focus in 2012. General Motors Co. will soon sell its part-electric Volt.
The Volt is scheduled for limited release this fall and allows the driver to drive on battery alone for 40 miles before switching on a small gas engine that can take the vehicle up to 300 miles.
As one of the creators of General Motors' failed EV1, Andrew Farah knows the limits of the electric charging network.
"Show me an EV1 owner and I will show you someone who has broken down," said Farah, who cited a lack of a widespread charging network as one reason for the car's failure. Farah is the lead engineer on GM's Volt.
GM's Volt is partly a reaction to the lack of public chargers and the limited range that were factors in the EV1's demise.
As for the Leaf, Nissan said it fills a certain niche but isn't for everyone.
"I would not recommend this car for road trips," said Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary. "We see this as a city car, a commuter car."
Nissan points out that most people drive well within the 100-mile range in a given day and that the Leaf will primarily serve those with regular driving routines. Government data backs that up, with about 78 percent of Americans driving 40 miles or fewer to and from work, according to the Department of Transportation.
But many Americans drive longer distances for family trips and vacations. Over Memorial Day weekend, vacationers had planned to travel an average of 626 miles both ways, with the vast majority of trips by car, AAA said.
Tom Moloughney, a 43-year-old New Jersey restaurant owner, is part of a test lease program for BMW's all-electric Mini-E. He said that electrics work well for two-car households, with the electric as the primary commuting vehicle and a gas car for longer trips and vacations.
Moloughney said that range anxiety is manageable -- you just have to plan your trips carefully and know how far you're going.
"You are not gripping the steering wheel with white knuckles. You plan your trips and plan for how far you are going."

[rkctdwn]

Terry Haines, on 27 July 2010 - 01:01 PM, said:

GM to sell Volt for $41K, lease for $350 a month

DETROIT – General Motors Co. said Tuesday its Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost $41,000 when it goes on sale in November.
While the price is about $8,000 more than its closest rival, the Nissan Leaf, GM said it will offer a $350-per-month lease deal that's essentially equal to the Leaf's. That will put the battery-powered Volt within reach of many people, GM said.
Both cars also are eligible for a federal tax credit that will cut their prices by $7,500. The Volt would fall to $33,500 while the Leaf's would drop to $25,280 from nearly $33,000.
Some states, such as California, Georgia and Oregon, offer additional tax breaks that lower the price further.
The Volt, a 4-door sedan, runs on battery power for up to 40 miles but has a small gasoline engine to generate electricity once the battery runs down. The gas engine can generate power to run the car another 300 miles.
That's a big selling point because some drivers worry about the battery going dead during trips. This so-called "range anxiety" dogged GM's experimental EV-1 electric car in the 1990s.
To give the car wider appeal, drivers must know "they're not going to get stranded," said Joel Ewanick, GM vice president U.S. marketing, as he announced the Volt's price at a conference in San Jose, Calif.
GM's lease deal is $350 a month for 36 months with $2,500 down. Nissan's lease plan is $349 per month for the same length of time with $1,995 down.
GM will unveil the Volt first in California, then in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Washington, D.C., Michigan and Texas. The cars will first be sold through 600 Chevrolet dealers. But in 12 to 18 months, dealers nationwide should offer the cars.
Nissan's Leaf, which goes on sale in December, can go up to 100 miles on a charge. The car doesn't have a gas engine and must be recharged once its battery is depleted.
Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said the Leaf itself emits no pollution and is designed for people whose daily travels are within its range



NEW YORK (AP) -- The auto industry calls it range anxiety: Drivers want electric cars but worry they won't have enough juice to make long trips. After all, what good is going green if you get stranded with a dead battery?
It's a fear that automakers must overcome as they push to sell more battery-powered cars. So government and business are taking steps to reassure drivers by building up the nation's network of electric charging stations.
The hope is Americans will become more comfortable buying cars such as Nissan's all-electric Leaf, due out late this year, which can travel just 100 miles on a single charge. That's fine for a commute but potentially stressful for longer road trips.
"I think the Leaf is a beautifully designed vehicle, but 50 miles in one direction is just not enough," says Bob Shafron, a former electric car owner in California. "I think they are going to run into problems in markets like LA, where things are spread out."
While automakers and electric car advocates expect most charging to be done at home outlets, those plugs won't help drivers running low on power far from their garages or caught in traffic.
Only a few hundred public chargers exist now, but several government grants totaling more than $115 million will help add thousands more, including in San Diego, Detroit, Washington, D.C., and Bellevue, Wash.
Electric vehicle advocates hope more will be built by private retailers and restaurants, using the charging stations to draw in customers the same way coffee shops offer Wi-Fi.
Public and privately funded chargers are going up in places like rest stops, hotels and McDonald's and Starbucks. Still, even the most optimistic estimates put the number of public charging stations at 16,000 by 2012, tiny compared with the 117,000 gas stations on American roads.
President Barack Obama wants 1 million electric cars on American roads by 2015, but experts say a chicken-and-egg problem is standing in the way. Before enough cars hit the road, private vendors may be reluctant to build many charging stations. And without many charging stations on the road, people may be reluctant to buy the cars.
Most public stations will take eight hours to juice up a car all the way, about the same as chargers in individual homes. These plugs could work for people who have chargers near their offices, but wouldn't work for quick refueling. Even a partial charge will take awhile -- two-and-a-half hours to get 30 miles. A limited number of the chargers will be fast-chargers. If you can find one, it will still take 30 minutes for a full powerup.
In 1999, Shafron ran out of power as he was driving his EV1, the all-electric car that General Motors launched in the 1990s and later stopped making, from his beach home to Northridge, Calif. His range meter told him he had 20 miles left, but it quickly ran down to zero.
Difficulty in gauging remaining battery charge was a common issue with the EV1. Varying road conditions like hills and bad weather, which can take a toll on battery life, made the range of early electric cars tough to predict.
Carmakers say that new range meters in today's electric cars are much more accurate.
Whether or not the infrastructure is ready, many automakers will be putting out electric cars, with an estimated 146,000 on the road by the end of 2012.
Tesla, which just took itself public, has sold a little more than 1,000 high-end electric sports cars and plans to offer a lower-priced sedan in the next few years. Nissan has its Leaf, and Ford aims to enter the market with an all-electric Focus in 2012. General Motors Co. will soon sell its part-electric Volt.
The Volt is scheduled for limited release this fall and allows the driver to drive on battery alone for 40 miles before switching on a small gas engine that can take the vehicle up to 300 miles.
As one of the creators of General Motors' failed EV1, Andrew Farah knows the limits of the electric charging network.
"Show me an EV1 owner and I will show you someone who has broken down," said Farah, who cited a lack of a widespread charging network as one reason for the car's failure. Farah is the lead engineer on GM's Volt.
GM's Volt is partly a reaction to the lack of public chargers and the limited range that were factors in the EV1's demise.
As for the Leaf, Nissan said it fills a certain niche but isn't for everyone.
"I would not recommend this car for road trips," said Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary. "We see this as a city car, a commuter car."
Nissan points out that most people drive well within the 100-mile range in a given day and that the Leaf will primarily serve those with regular driving routines. Government data backs that up, with about 78 percent of Americans driving 40 miles or fewer to and from work, according to the Department of Transportation.
But many Americans drive longer distances for family trips and vacations. Over Memorial Day weekend, vacationers had planned to travel an average of 626 miles both ways, with the vast majority of trips by car, AAA said.
Tom Moloughney, a 43-year-old New Jersey restaurant owner, is part of a test lease program for BMW's all-electric Mini-E. He said that electrics work well for two-car households, with the electric as the primary commuting vehicle and a gas car for longer trips and vacations.
Moloughney said that range anxiety is manageable -- you just have to plan your trips carefully and know how far you're going.
"You are not gripping the steering wheel with white knuckles. You plan your trips and plan for how far you are going."

Sure hope the right folks are planning for the enlarging capacity of the electrical grid. Of our utilities are in -dire straits already, congress can legislate until they are blue the face and they'll never get it right! Oh I ran into a Ham in Colorado who mad as hell at GM for taking his EV back, but then he was an engineer and understood the discipline.
Myself Terry with my situation screw even considering electric the internal combustion with do just fine. Twenty more got more import things to waste money. Besides I've already done my part years 79 installed domestic hot-water system and 5 years ago bit the bullet upgraded air to air heat-pump to Geothermal. I had them oversize my vertical closed loops by one ton of capacity and lucked out with the vendor and not had one minute of trouble in 5 years. Interfaced the Geo units hot-water generator in with my 80 gallon solar storage tank it's really worked out great. The key is larger loop and having knowledgeable Geo well driller/installer who works well with the Hvac shop. Haven't had to use a single Kwh of resistance--breakers are turner off. Geothermal compared to Air to Air Heat pump is nite and day more light a natural gas furnace in the dead of winter.
If your young and building new house or doing retro like I did if you don't do Geothermal your throwing your money away! What ever you put into it increase house value the same per Realtor's.
Opps off the soap box re-do house screw the electric cars for now, let the rich work out the bugs. Yeah ORF's get crankie!!!!