38 replies to this topic

[BuckeyeSVT]

Over the past couple of years I have been searching for a company to create a custom grind for our camshafts. Since then, I have successfully partnered with a Cam company to do this for us. I have a set of the first grinds, they are a prototype "hot" cam with increased duration and lift.

First noticeable change when installed was the idle lope. The increased lift does cause some idle roughness (not much, but you can feel the idle pretty good now). However, underway there is no ill-effects. My dyno before cams but with all my other mods was 207.8HP\204.9TQ STD (Before cams). After cams, 218.5\201.7TQ SAE... After a retune for the camshafts... 227HP\214TQ SAE. So, overall I gained 20HP and 10TQ in total gains. However the charts are where the differences are major. If members are interested I can post the before and after cam installation dynos for reference. For the first time since owning a Full 3.0L I was able to bounce off the limiter without effort.. Normally anyone with a Full 3L with 3.0L cams can't do that unless they purposely try. I never did because the engine was flat over 6,200RPM.

I will put together a group buy if enough people are interested, if so - Please post here.

Thanks!



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-Dom

[BuckeyeSVT]

Video of Dyno Run...





-Dom

[mrspindlelegs]

This definitely sounds interesting. I hope to tackle my 3.0L build either this winter or next year so at least the timing is good.

However, I do have a few questions:

1. Are we talking about regrinding stock camshafts or stand alone replacements?

2. Are they similar to any of the Cat Camshaft offerings?

3. Do you have a ballpark price in the absence of a Group Buy?

4. Was your new tune done with standard SCT software? You did elude to having a tune done with an unnamed more powerful software system in a different thread.

[BuckeyeSVT]

mrspindlelegs, on 24 August 2011 - 07:44 PM, said:

This definitely sounds interesting. I hope to tackle my 3.0L build either this winter or next year so at least the timing is good.

However, I do have a few questions:

1. Are we talking about regrinding stock camshafts or stand alone replacements?

2. Are they similar to any of the Cat Camshaft offerings?

3. Do you have a ballpark price in the absence of a Group Buy?

4. Was your new tune done with standard SCT software? You did elude to having a tune done with an unnamed more powerful software system in a different thread.

Question #1: Regrinding stocks and retaining all the gears and pulleys so installation is non-earth shattering...lol (Unlike Cat Cams).

Question #2: Similar but different, I read Cat Cams profiles and honestly they aren't quite as hot as the set I'm running. Plus the #'s they are showing for duration are overstated... Severely.

Question #3. Absence ball park price? I would venture $800... for the full set with cores traded.

Question #4. I chose a tuner who uses the Moates system for tuning vs. SCT. My PCM is now flashed, and the overall tunability of the engine was very interesting - The parameters that they had to work with eclipses the SCT software. Also, no base tunes only stock tunes and they build from there. SCT base tunes are tunes that are mostly taken from other tuners and then wrapped up in a "starter" code for other dealers. Problem is, that base tune is utter shit - You would WANT your tuner starting from a base 2.5L SVT tune instead of their "modified" tune. Simple things like Fan temp and switch points are all screwed up in their base tunes. I would avoid SCT software, it's only made basic for those who don't fully understand tuning and it's more or less a crutch to those who really can't tune. I don't want someone who can't tune working on my engine, and anybody else's for that matter.

I have a new shop that I'm working with, they are very good and they fully understand the in's and out's of tuning. I will continue to use them as long as they are around.

-Dom

[rac74]

It doesn't appear that you lost much if any at all on the low end as is typical with a cam reprofile. Any idea on the new dynamic CR and possibilities of using forged pistons in the future to get the CR back up and more power?

Edit: I guess this is number two to hit 227 wHP, eh?

Edited by rac74, 24 August 2011 - 08:39 PM.

[mrspindlelegs]

Well, I think you can mark me down as "In" on getting this done. As long as no act of God or severe financial disaster hits me, the money is there to bankroll such a mod.

The only last question I have for now is "Will this hot grind cause coil bind with the stock valve springs / head set-up on a 2005 Escape 3.0L?

[BuckeyeSVT]

No coil bind on 2005 Sable heads.. And Escape are the same.

-Dom

[SVTjeff]

Good Morning Dom -

Congrats - Great Job on the R&D, in-car install and the tune.

Jeff

[BuckeyeSVT]

rac74, on 24 August 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

It doesn't appear that you lost much if any at all on the low end as is typical with a cam reprofile. Any idea on the new dynamic CR and possibilities of using forged pistons in the future to get the CR back up and more power?

Edit: I guess this is number two to hit 227 wHP, eh?

I haven't done any calculations on the DCR, Although I'm pretty happy overall. Unless I intend to build an all out race motor I'm actually pretty content with where I'm at right now aside from a few stray HP that I know I can get by making a few tweaks here and there to my intake system.

And yes, that's #2... Achievement? Lol...

SVTjeff, on 25 August 2011 - 07:05 AM, said:

Good Morning Dom -

Congrats - Great Job on the R&D, in-car install and the tune.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, I appreciate it. It's been a long time coming and alot of $$$$ in R&D and tuning/testing. I'm just glad my initial calculations paid off and I didn't end up with a set of SVT Cams...lol. All HP, no TQ. Being able to keep the high TQ # was important to me while allowing the engine to breathe at the top end making more power. My overall goal is 230+HP/220TQ... And I'm very close to doing it.



-Dom

[spridget]

Sounds peppy! 4500-6500 really picked up without any low rpm TQ loss. Nice work.

A 3L with SVT cams finally finds its nuts at 6500-7500. It takes so much longer to get there with less TQ. Why is it impossible to convince others that SVT cams are slower on the street?

[Rikenbomb]

spridget, on 25 August 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

Sounds peppy! 4500-6500 really picked up without any low rpm TQ loss. Nice work.

A 3L with SVT cams finally finds its nuts at 6500-7500. It takes so much longer to get there with less TQ. Why is it impossible to convince others that SVT cams are slower on the street?

Yes it has! And to think where you see the hp curve dip is where there is more room for improvements such as using a larger TB or getting head/valve work done.

I'll agree with you on the SVT cams. In my setup you're not going to get much more than 200tq on it. Honestly I want more torque than that. I'd like to get another 10 ft-lbs or torque on my setup.

The other issue is the SVT Intake. Unless you have your SVT/2.5L Intake Max Extrude Honed, you are guaranteed to be missing 10-20 hp (and probably the same amount of torque [depending on intake]) on your build.

[BuckeyeSVT]

spridget, on 25 August 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

Sounds peppy! 4500-6500 really picked up without any low rpm TQ loss. Nice work.

A 3L with SVT cams finally finds its nuts at 6500-7500. It takes so much longer to get there with less TQ. Why is it impossible to convince others that SVT cams are slower on the street?

That's the point I have been trying to make for years. SVT cams are nice cams, provided you put them in the engine they were designed for. Putting SVT cams in a full 3.0L is not the way to go faster. (At the risk of sounding condesending)... Using SVT camshafts are only important to the "kids" who want the highest peak HP numbers. They either don't understand how Torque works, or really don't care (YES CEG'ers, I'm looking at you). Perhaps with a little tutorial on how Torque affects your whole powerband, maybe some people would take notice that even though you have a small 200RPM peak of max HP (for bragging rights??).. You can't replace the lost torque by going with those cams. Most Full Oval port 3.0L's have a Torque to HP difference of about 6-12 ft lbs of Torque. Most Split to Oval port and Hybrids have a 15-25 ft/lb torque to HP difference. That's quite a difference and a telling comparison between the two engines.

Rikenbomb, on 25 August 2011 - 04:14 PM, said:

Yes it has! And to think where you see the hp curve dip is where there is more room for improvements such as using a larger TB or getting head/valve work done.

I'll agree with you on the SVT cams. In my setup you're not going to get much more than 200tq on it. Honestly I want more torque than that. I'd like to get another 10 ft-lbs or torque on my setup.

The other issue is the SVT Intake. Unless you have your SVT/2.5L Intake Max Extrude Honed, you are guaranteed to be missing 10-20 hp (and probably the same amount of torque [depending on intake]) on your build.

Your engine is something that honestly alot of people couldn't compare to. You have P&P heads, 3L valves, 3L LIM, Max Extrude Honed UIM... Yeah. Alot, and it costs money to get into the 220+ HP range. It's not found by stock parts and mixing and matching stuff from one motor to the other.

[RANT] This is where I get a good laugh, you look around and see people waste tons of money on XCal2/XCal3, Big MAF's and TB's.... And they get absolutely nothing in return. Nothing... Not a red cent. And then the "enthusiast DIY tuners" with their XCal's... Yeah. You are going to spend $250-$500 just for the unit... And never spend any quality dyno time with a wideband tuning it. BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!! Wanna see your engine go bye-bye quickly? Tune it shitty, you'll find out what it means to be a part of the "I BLEW MY 3L CLUB". It's an exclusive club for people who can't tune or beat the ever living shit out of a poorly built engine. Either way, money lost. If I could've harnessed all the lost capital all these people have sunk into failed attempts at building a 3L... We would have a Full 500HP+ AWD Contour. Believe it, I imagine between all the blown up attempts out there it probably totals around $10K+ or so. And mail order tunes? ...lol.

Open wallet. Take all money out and set on ground. Set money on fire. Watch money burn and get the enjoyment that no time, personal injury or good 3.0L engines were harmed in your futile attempt at a half ass job. Sorry, my take from the trenches... Don't hate the mechanic, hate the stupid "Companies" selling the crap that doesn't work!

[/RANTOFF]

[rac74]

Dom,

Do you have the raw data (250RPM increments) for the before and after and also Rikenbomb's dyno run? I'd like to plot all three runs in Excel or Matlab for visual comparison unless someone can do it with photoshop, etc..

Quote

you look around and see people waste tons of money on XCal2/XCal3, Big MAF's and TB's..

This is when people start gettig pissed because they spent money on crap they didn't need whereas had they done their research they could have saved themselves a bunch of money. I just look at my dyno and laugh at all the crap I tried to do in the past (split-to-oval port) that did absolutely nothing and was a complete waste of money when the new swap using a mechanically stock engine outperforms it in every regard.

My tuner loved me because I gave him a mechanically sound swap installed and ready to go using no-frills hardware that was designed to work together. Everything was installed or modified using sound methods. I gave him a comprehensive build sheet and let him do his job and he did it quite well.

Don't skimp or it will cost you big time in the end!

[Rikenbomb]

rac74, on 26 August 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

Dom,

Do you have the raw data (250RPM increments) for the before and after and also Rikenbomb's dyno run? I'd like to plot all three runs in Excel or Matlab for visual comparison unless someone can do it with photoshop, etc..



This is when people start gettig pissed because they spent money on crap they didn't need whereas had they done their research they could have saved themselves a bunch of money. I just look at my dyno and laugh at all the crap I tried to do in the past (split-to-oval port) that did absolutely nothing and was a complete waste of money when the new swap using a mechanically stock engine outperforms it in every regard.

My tuner loved me because I gave him a mechanically sound swap installed and ready to go using no-frills hardware that was designed to work together. Everything was installed or modified using sound methods. I gave him a comprehensive build sheet and let him do his job and he did it quite well.

Don't skimp or it will cost you big time in the end!

Are you looking to compare what SVT cams will do on a 3L vs. what the custom cams can offer on a 3L?

[rac74]

Rikenbomb, on 26 August 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Are you looking to compare what SVT cams will do on a 3L vs. what the custom cams can offer on a 3L?

No. I'd like all three TQ/HP curves overlayed. I'd use WinPEP for your's and his 3L cammed dyno but this last run wasn't on a DynoJet (I'm not sure you can manually input the data yet). That way everyone can see the difference. It would also be nice to get an equation and find the areas under each curve over certain limits. This would help us determine how much work each setup performs over various limits.

[3LSVTTOUR]

I would love to ride in this car... Is this the 2nd highest NA HP set?

[mrspindlelegs]

3LSVTTOUR, on 30 August 2011 - 10:47 AM, said:

I would love to ride in this car... Is this the 2nd highest NA HP set?

From what I've seen on CEG and NECO forums, it looks like BuckeyeSVT has hit a "2nd Highest" horsepower output and probably "3rd Highest" torque as documented by a dynosheet. The only person I know that has exceeded BuckeyeSVT's HP and TQ output is "timeless420" who hit 236 HP and 219 TQ. The dyno sheet can be found in message #5 of this thread:

http://www.newcougar...yours-here.html

Fairly complete info on timeless420's build is listed in that thread.

rb26deet32 hit 222 HP and 220 TQ.

There may be a very few others that have done as good in one of two categories but I have not digged deeply enough to find them.

[3LSVTTOUR]

mrspindlelegs, on 30 August 2011 - 11:30 AM, said:

From what I've seen on CEG and NECO forums, it looks like BuckeyeSVT has hit a "2nd Highest" horsepower output and probably "3rd Highest" torque as documented by a dynosheet. The only person I know that has exceeded BuckeyeSVT's HP and TQ output is "timeless420" who hit 236 HP and 219 TQ. The dyno sheet can be found in message #5 of this thread:

http://www.newcougar...yours-here.html

Fairly complete info on timeless420's build is listed in that thread.

rb26deet32 hit 222 HP and 220 TQ.

There may be a very few others that have done as good in one of two categories but I have not digged deeply enough to find them.

DavidZ hit 249fwhp With a 3L hybrid and one off adjustable cam gears.

[mrspindlelegs]

3LSVTTOUR, on 30 August 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

DavidZ hit 249fwhp With a 3L hybrid and one off adjustable cam gears.

Impressive! It's going to take some deep digging to find the exact information on David Z's work. His activity over on CEG stopped in 2005 and many of his posts are in the older 2000 - 2002 archive which is not searchable anymore (until somebody fixes the search function).

[rac74]

DavidZ had the touring car cams in a hybrid with ~12:1 static compression from what I recall.