Adam98SVT Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/03/...in4646424.shtml Apparently driving a new car is enough to get you 10-20 billion USD these days. "WASHINGTON – Embattled auto company chief executives scored some points with Congress by driving — instead of flying — to the hearings on a possible federal assistance package. Sen. Richard Shelby, an Alabama Republican, remained dubious, though. "I wonder if they're going to drive back?" he asked, to the sound of chuckles in the Banking Committee hearing room Thursday. The heads of Ford Motor Co., General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC had taken a hit last month when they traveled to the capital on their private jets to plead for a federal bailout. The auto executives this time made the 520-mile trip to Washington in hybrid cars. Underscoring the different approach, GM chief executive officer Rick Wagoner and other executives with his company ate lunch Wednesday at Quiznos at a Pennsylvania rest stop along the way." Let them die. New and better car and truck manufacturers will come out of it. Edited December 4, 2008 by Adam98SVT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99ContourLX Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Oh, poor guys! They didn't fly in their individual jets and had to eat at a Quiznos. I wonder if they used coupons. I feel sorry for them. Let's just give them $34 billion ($9 billion more than their last figure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam98SVT Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Last I saw (on drudge) was 60+ % of US population opposed a big 3 bailout. The link is not up anymore but it was up last night or this morning...cant remember. Let them fall and new companies will come of it that are much more responsible with thier money and much more reasonable with the labor unions. I have no problem fixing up my '02 Dodge Grand Caravan or my '98.5 Contour SVT. No need for a new car here, and no need for the extremely expensive service of a dealer. FACK THEM. In my humble opinion of course... Terry you better chime in here or Im gonna be pissed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow Cat Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Ford has said they don't NEED a bailout, but instead asked for a line of credit in case things go worse than expected through 2009.... They have lowered their expectations by almost 1/3rd and said even at that they will be fine through 2009.... GM on the other hand is next to screwed. I don't agree with telling 2-3 million workers to get bent because the boss of some other company was an idiot... I don't agree with just handing them a blank check, and I think the leader ship needs punished & revamped... but I also don't think the country can handle the huge influx of unemployment that would follow them going under. We could easily slip from a several year recession to a decade of depression... I guess it's all about priorities... and mine are far different from yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spridget Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I do believe the Big 3 can use some help, but no blank checks. The Big 3 have thousands of retirees to pay for... foreign owned plants here in the States don't have ANY retirees to care for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam98SVT Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 you forget the decades of unemployment insurance the companies have paid. That money should be around somewhere... Let them fall and the better auto makers even if they are based in Japan will buy up the plants and re-hire most of the workers anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laminar Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 you forget the decades of unemployment insurance the companies have paid. That money should be around somewhere... Let them fall and the better auto makers even if they are based in Japan will buy up the plants and re-hire most of the workers anyhow. And the proposed "bailout" isn't the same as the financial sector received - it's all loan money that will be repaid - nothing like nationalizing Fannie and Freddie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rac74 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I'm beginning to agree with you more Adam. The government will bail them out and things will be OK....until they tank again and all that taxpayer money goes down the drain. If you keep rewarding failure it will keep occuring and taxpayer money will continue to be wasted until we get into a capitalist system, then only the investors lose and not all the taxpayers. Yeah, it's going to to suck in the near term but it its the only way to get back on track and to long term prosperity for all. Corporatism only helps the few.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam98SVT Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 I'm beginning to agree with you more Adam. The government will bail them out and things will be OK....until they tank again and all that taxpayer money goes down the drain. If you keep rewarding failure it will keep occuring and taxpayer money will continue to be wasted until we get into a capitalist system, then only the investors lose and not all the taxpayers. Yeah, it's going to to suck in the near term but it its the only way to get back on track and to long term prosperity for all. Corporatism only helps the few.... Finally someone gets it. This shi t is not that hard people. It sucks now, yeh, just like it sucks for me without a job. But I know why I dont have a job (my company failed to produce enough money to support itself) and you dont see me bitching. I am looking at all avenues where I can create, optimize, or fill a company hole. Im working just a few hours a week right now (net eng.) but you never know I have 3 clients all property management companies and those clients feed off "old money" So maybe a year from now Ill be able to make my 70k or whatever and just do 24/7 support to my clients. YES. IT SUCKS NOW. I am willing to let it suck now to secure the fact that it wont suck worse in the future. Bailing out the private sector is simply holding up the house of cards a little while longer. Eventually it will fall. The failure to realize this will only result in the form of a much more severe failure down the road. This is the truth. Do you really think giving people or companies free money is going to change their practice! You just encouraged them to keep on doing the same thing that made them failures in the first place!~!!! A bit of comedy, humor me. Bueller...Bueller...has anyone seen Ferris Bueller... Its called the Laffer curve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam98SVT Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 Something dee oh oh economics...voodoo economics... Really a great movie. Sorry to just throw that stuff in here but all this reminds me of Ben Stein from the movie. In real life, he actually is an extremely smart man and also has a firm grasp on economics. Very good man IMO. And hes a JEW! Whens the last time you ever heard a Jewish man/woman praise freedom and justice (aka captialism, free market etc.). Its a proven fact that the majority of American Jews vote Democrat and anti-freedom. Proven fact. Quite a unique character IMO. Very smart and if you like your humor dry...very funny man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rac74 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 It's short sightedness. Yes, in the next 5-10 years it is going to suck for me and whole lot of other people, but what happens in 20, 30, 40, etc...years?Short term gain, long term pain... An inefficient company that doesn't produce is not something I would want to keep around. It will fail eventually, regardless how much money is thrown at it. There is no accountability anymore. What more perfect incentive for proper business practice than to know that if you screw up, you're outta' business?! It's not like those laid off are going to be permanently unemployed. They will get new jobs eventually, whether with a new auto manufacturer or somewhere else. The market works things it out in the end. We just have to let it run its course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam98SVT Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 An inefficient company that doesn't produce is not something I would want to keep around. It will fail eventually, regardless how much money is thrown at it. It's not like those laid off are going to be permanently unemployed. They will get new jobs eventually, whether with a new auto manufacturer or somewhere else. The market works things it out in the end. We just have to let it run its course... Precisely. Again people this shi t is not that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow Cat Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 1 question ... why would foreign auto makers buy up plants & replace the jobs lost by the big 3 when people aren't buying cars? There is no money in it.... the market will keep shrinking until it hits equilibrium then start growing again as the economy recovers.... It's not that hard, but the length & depth of the recession will greatly depend on what happens with the big 3..... Maybe 10 years from now those jobs would get replaced, but it won't be in 1-2 years... There isn't a magic fairy that is going to swoop in & fix everything just because we have faith in free trade. There are multiple ways of looking at the economy, and I disagree with you that a true free market is the best for the people.... No economic system is perfect, it's all a balancing act, and we are walking a very thin line right now between a couple year recession and many year depression.... Personally I feel limiting the swings of the economy protects people from the worst of times.... but then again I've lost almost 1/2 my retirement over the past year and probably won't be able to retire when I wanted, esp if things get worse than I'm expecting over the next 2 years. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don't think sacrificing the big 3 on the altar of free trade will fix the economy, or even help it in the future... Them restructuring, and breaking into small companies, and doing many other things would.... but that won't happen, and whether the government gives them a loan or not won't change that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam98SVT Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 1 question ... why would foreign auto makers buy up plants & replace the jobs lost by the big 3 when people aren't buying cars? There is no money in it.... the market will keep shrinking until it hits equilibrium then start growing again as the economy recovers.... It's not that hard, but the length & depth of the recession will greatly depend on what happens with the big 3..... Maybe 10 years from now those jobs would get replaced, but it won't be in 1-2 years... There isn't a magic fairy that is going to swoop in & fix everything just because we have faith in free trade. There are multiple ways of looking at the economy, and I disagree with you that a true free market is the best for the people.... No economic system is perfect, it's all a balancing act, and we are walking a very thin line right now between a couple year recession and many year depression.... Personally I feel limiting the swings of the economy protects people from the worst of times.... but then again I've lost almost 1/2 my retirement over the past year and probably won't be able to retire when I wanted, esp if things get worse than I'm expecting over the next 2 years. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don't think sacrificing the big 3 on the altar of free trade will fix the economy, or even help it in the future... Them restructuring, and breaking into small companies, and doing many other things would.... but that won't happen, and whether the government gives them a loan or not won't change that fact. Man I know we would get along like brothers if we met. Politics an Philosopy really doesnt get personal with me. So if I come of harsh at times...its not because I dont like you or I have something against you. I dont. Like I said, were we to meet in person, fudge yeh we would probably be real good friends in no time at all. That said... An argument for totalitarian rule may never have been stated as strongly as this ^. True freedom and JUSTICE is what is needed. That is all. We suceeded in the Freedom department. We failed miserably in the JUSTICE department. That is why our implementation of freedom went to shiz. Thank your senators and local congresspersons. They fucked it up. What we are dealing with now bears NO RESEMBLANCE WHATSOEVER to freedom and justice. I dare you to argue that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam98SVT Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 WHY CANT I CUSS LIKE A NORMAL PERSON ON THIS BOARD!!! FACK /= FUDGE! WHAT THE FUDGE IS GOING ON AROUND HERE!!! What kind of kid under 18 is going to visit a facking Contour enthusiast forum? I mean were all adults here right? The Contour, with all its merits, and I love it and love mine, is a dead platform. Only the hardcore fans roll on here. If not, well, they can have the darkness that is CEG. Although you cant cuss there either. Facking fascists. OK Im calm now. I took my pills. Breath in, breath out... Dom please give me a pass on this... Everyone resume your normally scheduled business. Regards, Adam Retarded Forsman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spridget Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Let them fall and the better auto makers even if they are based in Japan will buy up the plants and re-hire most of the workers anyhow. I believe in the strength of American engineering, innovation, and adaptation abilities. I also believe in Social Security. The world economy is in turmoil, but the future is in alternative energy and fuels. As the largest consumers of energy and mobility, we need to lead the race. American factories employee American workers to build American innovation and mobility. The problem they need to solve is how to sell what we need and change what we want. If we are going to give up factory workers to build foreign products, they should invest more into Social Security. The Big 3 are big marketers of new technology to a wealthy populous. Selling the best product earns the biggest profit which drives the next innovation. Despite all the problems in the world, American lifestyle is nearly unaffected by paying for 2 foreign wars and $4/gas to fill their Escalades. The money is out there, but it's all in credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Haines Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 ...problem is it was OK to help out AIG and invest 70% of taxpayers money into the firm...Now investors will not touch AIG stock because 'we' own 70%...The private investor now views AIG as a 'national' company!... Sure fire way to stop private investment is to use public money!!.The 'ownership' of AIG now puts the investors off!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow Cat Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 We have been giving up personal freedoms for security and reassurance... esp. since 9/11 ... We take 1 small step, then another, then another, and before you know it the country is so far from where it started it's hard to believe it was every based on freedoms. In most countries that slip from democracy to dictatorships it is a serious of small step, then someone steps up claiming they can lead the country to greatness.... Democracy dies with a roar of cheer as people blindly put their faith in that hope... and all those small logic steps to protect people at the cost of their freedom become horribly twisted.... I don't want to watch that happen in America, but we've already started taking those first "logical" steps to protect people & the country at the cost of freedoms.... if we slip into a depression & that trend of giving up freedoms for protection continues we could end up in a very bad place. But that is another discussion, though I think if the big 3 do go under completely we will be in for the kind of depression that promotes that.... it would only take a charismatic leader (think early Hitler) to promise to return the country to greatness for people to blindly follow & vote away their rights.... it's happened before in many countries :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Haines Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Over half a million jobs lost in November.Bottom line is this..Without manufacturing and other high volume employers the economy will die. Even those working in finance have lost jobs.This is not just automakers but any industry that has high volume employment.As I have said before a well rounded economy and strong tax base depends on full employment.Take a look at how China climbed so high in the past years..industrial products with high volume employment.The circle of economy demands ALL sectors are covered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Haines Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 ...60% of the population may get their wish.. ...........Chrysler has hired bankruptcy firm Jones Day, according to The Wall Street Journal. Such a move points to the urgent need for automakers to restore their financial condition. Automakers have been quickly running out of cash as they contend with a persistent economic headwinds, flagging..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rac74 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 The circle of economy demands ALL sectors are covered... Agreed. It's not the federal governments responsibility to make sure I'm employed though. Government intervention in the economy always compounds and fails. But that is another discussion, though I think if the big 3 do go under completely we will be in for the kind of depression that promotes that.... it would only take a charismatic leader (think early Hitler) to promise to return the country to greatness for people to blindly follow & vote away their rights.... it's happened before in many countries :( You don't think we're in this now or have been?? Look at FDR. Look at Obama. You don' think people are sucked in right now?? "Save us governement" is the general idea I get from most people. Economic liberty is gone. Guns will be next through taxation and I can only imagine after that. It's nothing personal. Just take a look around at the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Haines Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 ....Agreed. It's not the federal governments responsibility to make sure I'm employed though.... ..That was not my implication with the circle of an economy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rac74 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 ..That was not my implication with the circle of an economy.... What are you implying then? 'Bit ocnfused... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Haines Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I'm saying that a county,any country,needs balance between 'industries'..that is mfg,commerce,service,banking etc etc ALL have a place to play.Cause an imbalance in any of those and the economy will slide... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow Cat Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Agreed. It's not the federal governments responsibility to make sure I'm employed though. Government intervention in the economy always compounds and fails. You don't think we're in this now or have been?? Look at FDR. Look at Obama. You don' think people are sucked in right now?? "Save us governement" is the general idea I get from most people. Economic liberty is gone. Guns will be next through taxation and I can only imagine after that. It's nothing personal. Just take a look around at the situation. No the government should't be in charge of making sure everyone has a job, but it is the governments job to protect itself & it's people from prolonged down turn and hardship... the dollar may be printed by the government, but it's value is controlled by faith of investors .... Bad economy + No faith = decline of America as a financial world power.... The government needs the dollar to be strong just as much as the people want it to be, hence the interaction. Economic freedom & Personal freedom are 2 separate things, and like I said I don't believe true free trade, as in NO government interaction is best for the country or people as a whole.... I look at the past and at what FDR and think overall it was positive, maybe not everything done was for the best, and you might not think it's the governments place to interfere with the economy, but i think there is a time & place for it to happen. Especially since the value of the dollar that the government prints is bound so tightly to the economy.... This whole discussion leads to some very deep questions about government & economics, and I don't believe the 2 can be truly separate without the government being separate from the money... IE it the government had to follow it's own rules, and didn't control the printing of money, but rather was mainly just the "company" that made the laws & protected the people.... and a separate entity printed money & set it's value, whether tired directly to an economic system or a commodity.... But in any system there is room for corruption, distortion, and failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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