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svtlover

V-9 Vortech install for # 3544

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  • I decided to post here as well, as I've garnered a few friends (especially in the Northwest) on FCO.  I've purchased a never oiled V-9 Vortech supercharger kit.  Currently, I'm researching twice before installing once lol.  I can't find a forced induction Forum, and since I have a 3.0, this appears to be the correct place to post.  Let me know if it's not, and if so, where the appropriate forum is.  Any feeback you can give me regarding the comments below, I would appreciate it.
     
    So, after cruising CEG, it looks like this is where I'm at: A stock 2.5 with a 44.5cc chamber is at 9.70 to 1; a 3.0 Hybrid is at 11.24 to 1. Even though my heads are Stage 2 heads, the chamber has not been enlarged. So, I'm assuming my engine is at 11.24 to 1 just like any other hybrid. Why the ratio increases despite the larger cylinders, I don't know. Apparently the CR can be as high as 11.4 or 11.55 to 1. So, that's my next question - what is my real CR for this engine? Even assuming my CR is 11.24 to 1, this does appear to be too high. Dyno tuning this engine after the s/c goes in - based on my limited knowledge - should be a nightmare, especially on pump gas which in my town maxxes out at 92 octane. Even with octane booster, with the brittle pistons in the Duratec, I'm risking detonation.

     

    I did the math and the boost level should be at 6.6psi - quite modest and, with the exception of the compression ratio, perfect I think. I'm not trying to build the fastest Contour ever. Somewhere in the 340hp range is more than adequate (I'm not talking whp here). Does all of this sound correct so far?

Edited by svtlover

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Thanks for the feedback.  Terry I will look up "dynamic CR".

 

I know the prior owner/builder quite well - he's secretive about the cam profile but once I tell him what's going on, perhaps I can get the data.  At this point I'm shelving the install until such a time that I am comfortable with my knowledge base.  I may be looking at a complete tear down to go forged, but if I pull the heads and get the CR down to, say 10.5 to 1 or so (I don't know if I can get it to 9.5 to 1), then perhaps it should be safe.  Vortech designed the kit for 9.70 to 1, so I don't really understand why the extra HP is a factor?

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Update - I've taken info from here and CEG and looked through it.  One thread highlights a Mondy s/c with AWD conversion build.  This conversion is so inspirational -  makes me want to just quit for now, save money, and go all the way with a s/c AWD conversion.  In the meantime, I'm waiting on the custom cam profile for my hybrid - the prior owner says he has the specs so we'll see.  Nothing yet.  Anyway, perhaps, if the dynamic CR is low enough (based on the longer duration I've been quoted), the V9 may work. Still, with the high static CR on my hybrid (11.24 to 1 perhaps) it's not looking real positive. Forged internals are obviously the way to go.  Tearing down a perfectly good, low mileage hybrid seems ridiculous to me.  Big boosted power would be nice, but the car is fun as is.  340 hp + going through the front wheels - even with the Quaife - would be a handful.

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In my opinion - 11.2 static CR is waaaaay too high for any kind of significant boost on an existing engine running street gasoline.  Even with forged internals it would either die (running in heavy detonation) or if saved by knock detection it will be running at a fraction of peak power and very inefficiently with timing pulled way back.  Some of today's production engines run high CR and boost but those are direct injected so they can control cylinder pressure rise.

 

I'd even guess that at 11.2 you are on the edge of being able to run at best power spark advance on 93 octane.  Not a bad place to be, of course, but will go wrong with boost!

 

I do not have personal experience with forced induction engines, just an ME with general engine knowledge, thus "in my opinion"...

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Sorry I've not posted in a while, but nothing much happening. Thus far no luck on getting the cam profile; Billy lost the data card. He says he'll contact the shop that did the head work but who knows.......I don't blame him - not his car anymore.  

 

One note to make in response to 2000SVTC - I run 91 octane - without ethanol when I can find it - plus NOS octane booster that says it's tested to add 3 octane "for real", so you're right on the money here.  93 is not available in my town.  At roughly 94 octane, the car runs strongest and smoothest, which in a qualitative way is proof that my hybrid is indeed a high compression unit as advertised by Billy (the prior owner/builder).

At this point my goal - considering I know the CR is too high, even IF the DCR is low enough - is to budget more. Because I know I have a "keeper" CSVT here, my immediate goals have changed. My thinking now is first to do a basic tune locally to be sure the plugs/wires and ECU are in good order. Next, I've located a dyno tuner with some CSVT experience (still about 5 hours away, but still "local") that I think I'll work with to see if I can get a little more out of my current engine, which I think has more potential. It's a good hybrid, with a nasty top end that is unique compared to most 3.0's due to the stage 2 heads. Why not enjoy the car as is a while longer; after all this is a really strong 3.0 car with a built tranny/Quaife.....

Long term, I want to budget for a proper build with forged internals. The dyno tune will reveal a bit more data about what's going on, ie., torque/hp curves including low/high points, etc. Perhaps then I'll feel more comfortable with whether these heads could just be bolted straight back on to the "new" block - complete with low compression pistons.

Considering how much power and torque this engine with FI will make, I think another dream of mine could be realized by considering the AWD conversion I've mentioned before, so again it's back to budgeting. I used to lust after owning an Audi Quattro back in the day; this would be the best of both worlds. I'm really worried about screwing up the perfect handling I've achieved with all the suspension mods I've done, so again there's nothing wrong with having a little patience and just enjoying the car as is for a while longer.

I love the way this car rotates through an apex, and adding a rear diff - probably with a limited slip - may ruin this handling trait I currently love. I had a WRX with LSD and this thing was such a pusher.  Dialing it out was nearly impossible. Subaru even came up with a "fix" for this for the STi, but from what I've read even the torque distribution control didn't eliminate the understeering tendency completely. Thus far nobody, including PRT, knows how to keep or make a LSD for the front diff once the AWD conversion is done. Always compromises!

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Haven't posted on this thread for a while, but there has been plenty of cud-chewing over this next build phase.  AWD Mondy's, yeah sure - not really an option since they're so rare.  I've tried the idea of only sending about 30% of the torque to the rear of the XType to prevent damage, which in theory sounds good......except I'd still be dealing with the weak Jag trans and no Quaife.  Terry says no way on hooking the Quaife to the Jag transmission.  I realize many out there have already been through all this........With some luck, I'll still be pulling the engine this spring.  My buddy Shawn can handle the forged internals and balancing for me.  I guess I'll settle for a bargain basement regular old FWD S/C 3.0.........

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Yup. Just a family car for taking the boys to soccer games... and powering out of hairpins ahead of Corvettes

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couldnt you run the noble 3.0 setup? http://www.desktopmachine.com/framepic.php?id=1794&size=1024

 

 

For your money, you get a 425bhp, 390 lb-ft V6. The spec builds on the already impressive unit 3.0 V6 installed in the Noble M12. The Ford Duratec engine now gets high lift camshafts, forged pistons, larger turbos, oil cooler, improved engine cooling, a larger capacity, baffled sump and a new gear shift mechanism for the six speed 'box.

The M400 retains the twin-turbocharged arrangement of the standard GTO-3 and 3R models, but now has a brace of larger Garrett T28 turbochargers, which produce maximum boost at 0.85bar, replacing the standard cars’ T25s. A revised fuelicon1.png pump and larger injectors cater for the M400’s improved performance.

Working with leading automotiveicon1.png engineers, Roush Technologies, Noble has developed a bespoke engine map for the M400, which makes full use of the power and torque available in the mid- to top-end of the rev-range, allowing the 3.0-litre V6 to pull strongly right up to its 7200rpm limiter. The maximum 425bhp of power is now produced at 6500rpm (300rpm up on other models) and the maximum 390lb ft of torque at 5000rpm, with 75 per cent of this figure available from just 3500rpm.

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