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Mark_See

3L dead

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First,

 

maybe through my own fault, we are putting to much "pressure" on Terry for an answer. Let's remember that he does what he

 

does in FREE advice. By all rights, Terry could be charging consulting fees and a lot of our questions would go unanswered.

 

 

Second, If we all go to Terry for our questions answered why are his answers being questioned?

Personally, If it

 

were not for Terry's services and FREE advice, the car would not have ran in the first place. Let's all relax a bit.

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I'm not

 

questioning Terry at all. Just voicing my .02 :-)

 

I just think if there is some fundamental flaw in the motors,

 

that all 3.0Ls would be dying around the certain time of the similiar death. And they don't really seem to be. Yes, the main

 

death is a spun bearing, but since alot of people are using junkyard motor, are they checking the bearings and replacing them?

 

Are they making sure things are in spec? etc?

 

The people whom seem to put the motors together from A to Z seem to be

 

lasting, the ones who don't...seem to be dying!

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Even

 

those are still prone to failure. Your thinking is very close to the problem at hand - Even I know my motor and the other

 

motors may at some point (self destruct). Sad to say - But I think we've seen enough assurance that it will happen the

 

question is "when"? That's something that occurs at different points in the engine's life - If at all.

 

There is

 

an inherent "flaw", however - There's alot more to it than that. Ford needs to address this "messy" situation and when/if they

 

do there will be alot of very concerned 3L and 2.5L owners out there... Ford, Jaguar, Lincoln, Mazda and all.

 

-Dom

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style='color:black'>This scratches my idea of getting a 6 in a few months to replace my tour; i just can’t see spending all

 

that money on a car to have the motor fail under 100K. Over 100K, i can understand it, no motor will last forever...bearings

 

WILL wear out, it happens. Almost all parts of an engine are "wear-and-tear" parts, some wear and tear faster than others

 

(spark plugs for example) others may make it 250,000 miles or more, but rest assured, one day, the motor will cease to

 

run...the bearing(s) will let go, they are a wear item. And while they are one of the longest lasting wear items, they will

 

still fail eventually.

 

 

Now FWIW, i think

 

there is an inherent flaw in the 2.5 and 3.0 Duratecs. Common sense would tell most that an SVT hybrid 3L will be more at risk

 

because of the poor head drainage that has been talked about on the 2.5L heads. However there is a flaw in that thinking: it

 

seems to me that MANY 2.5 and 3.0L Duratecs are having the same problems...but they don’t have the same heads. So it can’t

 

really be in the heads, it has to be some sort of issue with either the block itself or engine internals. Ford knows about it,

 

they have to. But they aren’t required to release the info until a large # of original cars/motors report failures to the

 

NHTSA (i think that’s the org.)

 

 

 

 

Whether its the metal the blocks are made out of, or a bore and stroke problem, or a

 

matter of poor oil drainage somewhere in the motor is only an answer time will give. I’m absolutely positive that if terry

 

knew the fix for this, we would have been first to know. I have no doubt about that...if there is no fix, there is no fix.

 

 

 

remember there are good engines and bad

 

engines in every bunch, my 1994 ford ranger four cylinder had almost 300K on the original motor and clutch (clutch was

 

beginning to slip)

 

 

That said, there are

 

MANY MANY variables that can contribute to an engine failure, from weather or not the motor was broken in properly, all the way

 

to overreving, the possibilities to the cause are endless. But there are too many engines failing for the same reason to have

 

ANYTHING to do with break-in procedures or driver error, i refuse to believe that people really don’t know their cars well

 

enough to know not to rev to redline on a regular basis.

 

 

 

style='color:black'>Terry says it’s a ford issue, and i think he's right; it just can’t be a

 

coincidence.

 

Something is telling me it has something to do with the aluminum the

 

blocks are cast from.

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The spun

 

bearing problem has not shown up at the Taurus Car Club of America. Granted, the Duratec is the least popular engine in the 18

 

year run of the popular Ford Taurus, but I have yet to hear of this problem in one.

 

However, it seems to be quite

 

common with Contour 3L swaps.....

 

Are these engines dying from internal mechanical failures caused in the manufacturing

 

process, EEC's not being reprogrammed, or what?

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....there have been over 90 Escape engines fail under warranty with this problem.Yes it could be fixed but its a production

 

issue...until that is sorteted all engines 'out there' are at risk.....Yes I know 'why' but until the produdtion issue is

 

corrected any engine you get made by the 'existing process' is at risk.As a footnote some owners may think this is a load of

 

Terry BS...I can assure you all that its not!...This is a real problem that Ford cannot establish a 'start date' on .For

 

those among you who are professional engineers and have been involved in engine build and mfg processes it shouldn't be too

 

hard to work out where the process could cause this problem.

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Head

 

drainage issue?

 

No. Wherever is telling you that is on crack... I have yet to see an issue with

 

that.

 

-Dom

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....all

 

the 'suspect' lube issues & fixes seen in the past are WRONG,..oil pan,drains etc etc....NONE OF THEM WILL FIX THIS ISSUE

 

.....Again I have to say if you are a pro engineer you can see this......

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I personally

 

believe this issue has something to do with a very important step in the rebuild process that people are missing. What

 

instructions are people using for their swaps? Are they going by what people tell them online? I personally had a very

 

reputable Ford Technician do my swap for me. I was there for a lot of the work that he put into it and I can't help but think

 

there has to be something people are missing. I'm not sure if everyone with the straight 3L swaps are taking their heads off,

 

but if they are, are they torquing everything down to spec? I personally have a 3L Hybrid with 19,000 of the hardest miles

 

probably any Contour has/will ever see. I replaced only the rod bearings in my motor and proceeded to take the car up to

 

redline within the first 5 miles of driving it. I can't believe this is a "hit or miss" issue.

 

Mark

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...sorry

 

but you are way out in left field here.Believe what you will but I can assure you you cannot see what this is and even building

 

from a bare block up you wont see it.I have no reason to pass this or any info other than to give owners a 'heads up'....as

 

Dom will agree this IS GENUINE and not a dream.Your choice to dig around but the only answer is within Ford....

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I don't

 

think that you guys understand. The heads were taken off, fitted with new gaskets, bolts, and torqued in the correct sequence

 

in the correct steps. Regardless, and incorrect head torque is a seperate issue. We are talking about a spun bearing. The

 

only other thing done to the existing engine (other than minor ear removal surgery) was replacing the 3.0 oil pan w/ the 2.5

 

including the pick up tube (inspected, cleaned, and checked for clearance to the pan). this is it. Why would a engine w/

 

12,000 miles need new bearings etc... FWIW, I did not go by what People told me online, I went by what Terry had told me,

 

including long telephone conversations that he was kind enough to have with me. This issue (in my case) is not a simple missed

 

step. Terry is telling us that there was an error in the manufacturing of the engine. Some engines were effected and some

 

were not. Hence, the chances of getting a "bad" engine is hit or miss. Why is this so unbelievable. :steamed:

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...some

 

of MY research...Since I've changed and rebuilt MANY 2.5 and converted 3.0's, some months ago I decided to 'dig deeper'

 

into the spun bearing issue.I found that rods do distort over a period of time and the bearing 'nip' is reduced...that is a

 

long term conrod durability issue.At the same time,as I have a share in a small fab shop ,I took a trashed block and cut

 

it....I found nothing,.........well not at that time anyway.With the recent 'info' that I have we have 'looked

 

again'......I'll tell you in one word what I found..........Zircon.That alone should make it very clear what the issue is.

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Thanks for

 

replying in on this Terry & Dom! Some very good info on both forums. My 3L rebuild is on hold until you can shed some light

 

on what to do next. I like Fords and really like my Tour but their is a point when you have to throw in the towel no matter

 

how much has been spent. I guess if their is a way to find out if my engine or other engines have this metal content that's

 

how we'll know what the chances of BOOM are.

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...sorry but you are way

 

out in left field here

 

Well I'll be

 

damned if I want to leave left field then! I don't mind being questioned on my ideas, but Terry(no offense) is also known to

 

say that it would be a dumb idea to have an 11.3.1 compression 3L with "worn out" 2.5L parts. Now if my motor blows up in the

 

next 5k miles, I'll retract my previous statement but until then I've had no signs of anything but slight tuning being off

 

with my motor(knock on wood).

 

So are you saying that some blocks were made with different materials than others?

 

Some Contours were made in Mexico, some in Kansas City.. Is this an issue with one plant using different materials possibly?

 

Just doesn't seem like 2 parts going down the same assembly line could be totally hit or miss..

 

This has me almost

 

worried now! Grrrr

 

Mark

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...just look up what

 

Zircon is!!!....and maybe the Cosworth Process and all will become clear.... :icon_stud

 

Frank Zappa lives!

 

 

href='http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/zircon/zircon.htm'

 

target='_blank'>

 

 

href='http://www.cosworth-technology.co.uk/400_castings/420_process.htm'

 

target='_blank'>

 

So, what I'm gathering here is

 

that some of the sand-mold castings were done improperly? Causing a brittle silicate to be impregnated in the metal casting?

 

Am I even close?

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...casting sand(Zircon) residue in some OILWAYS is being retained in the material.This is in places that cannot be cleaned by

 

conventional methods....over the life of the engine the sand works loose and ends up....in the bearings.....

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Causing

 

the "Mysterious" spun bearing issues. Ever notice how #4 seems to always be the culprit? Anything that comes out of the

 

galleries are going to end up in #4 first and then make their way around.

 

-Dom

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...which

 

tells you Ford have no idea when this started and has only been paying attention during 2004!....How many 2.5/3.0 blocks do you

 

think are 'out there' today...just waiting to let that sand loose.???....As you maybe now can see...this is a MAJOR engine

 

issue....If your vehicle is 'within warranty' you have a chance of getting a free engine....but that may still have sand as

 

the problem HAS NOT BEEN RESOLVED....For the rest, with out of warranty or used engines or new 'short blocks',...tough

 

luck!!!How do you feel now about your mint 2.5 or 3.0 engine?...not so good is it!

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...casting sand(Zircon)

 

residue in some OILWAYS is being retained in the material.This is in places that cannot be cleaned by conventional

 

methods....over the life of the engine the sand works loose and ends up....in the

 

bearings.....

So any "non-conventional" ways to

 

clean it? I know this is probably a dumb question b/c if there were we'd probably know about it but still worth asking.

 

 

 

All of the sudden the thought of having a Zetec doesn't sound so bad. I'm driving a time-bomb that might go at

 

anytime.:drama:

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...with

 

respect to Ford....even shotblasting the areas they can get to does not remove all the sand......other ways?...maybe...I assume

 

they may be trying them as we speak...QC...yeh...we could 'cut' 50% of the blocks to check em...then trash em'...I DON'T

 

think so do you???...$$$$$$$$$$ :sinking:

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